Buying a Luthier-Made Guitar?
In Part 1 and Part 2 of this post I’ve addressed what to look for when buying a flamenco guitar. But things can get even more complicated when you’re looking to buy your first luthier-made guitar. Whether your budget is $2,500 or $25,000, the issues are more or less the same, and boil down to finding that “perfect” guitar and not regretting your purchase.
There are four main things to consider when looking to invest in a luthier-made guitar. Despite what I consider a pretty good position from which to declare what makes a good guitar, I want to say right up front that almost all of this is just my educated take. In fact, that’s really the point – almost everything important about guitars is subjective. How they sound, how they feel and how they look are all subjects that can’t really be quantified. So in the end, the most important thing about a guitar is how it sounds, feels and looks to you. (Resale value is a whole different story, and can be really confusing because it sometimes makes no sense).
The other really important thing I want to say is this: there is no perfect guitar! The odds of finding a guitar that sounds, feels and looks perfect are really small. (The odds of finding that guitar and being able to afford it can be even smaller). Also, I’ve had about ten “perfect guitars” in my life, so clearly it’s something of a moving target.
I have a few opinions about what makes a good guitar.
I’ve owned an almost embarrassing amount of guitars over the years. I had the good luck to meet most of the great guitar makers in Spain on my first trip there, so I’ve always had guitar maker friends. Thusly, I’ve had many earfuls about what makes a great guitar. I also recorded guitars for Guitar Salon International for ten years (almost 1500 recordings in all). It’s possible that I’ve heard more performances on more different guitars than anyone else ever. And this year I was a judge at the Granada Guitar Festival’s guitar-making competition – the first year they had a flamenco division for that.
This is what you should look for in a guitar:
First – decide whether or not you even want to play guitars that are outside of your budget. On the one hand you may get an idea of what your perfect (affordable) guitar should sound and feel like. On the other hand it’s possible you’ll set an impossible standard. But on the third hand you may learn a really valuable lesson. That lesson is: just because a guitar is more expensive or made by a better-known luthier doesn’t necessarily mean it’s better.
Second – if it’s not fun to play, the rest of it doesn’t really matter. It can be the most beautiful guitar in the world in terms of both sound and looks, but if you don’t enjoy playing it you’re not going to be happy in the long run. Because of this, I recommend playing a guitar for as long as possible before buying it. A guitar’s sound and looks and reputation and mystique can temporarily make you not notice that a guitar is a pain in the ass to play. You need to be sure about this before committing.
What’s the action here?
BUT – there’s almost nothing more important to making a guitar feel right (and sound right) than having the action set up properly. Preferably by someone who knows what they’re doing, like a luthier if you can find one. So if you love a guitar that’s hard to play you’ll want to see if the seller can get that fixed for you before you decide to buy. If you can’t be sure that a guitar can be made comfortable to play then my advice is to pass, no matter how much you love everything else about it.
Third – be as open-minded as possible. You may think you have to have a guitar with certain woods made by a certain maker in a certain year. But there are a lot of guitars out there! And you might be surprised by what you find if you just go by how a guitar sounds and feels. Try lots of guitars. To the extent possible try to just listen and feel the guitar without thinking about all of the hype and marketing we’ve been exposed to over the years. You may discover that a 1960’s Ramirez cedar-top blanca was what you wanted all along. But you may also discover that the young luthier who lives in your city/state/country will work with you to make you a guitar that’s just right for you. Or that the Japanese luthier you hadn’t heard of made great guitars in the 70’s or something.
Where do I go to look for a guitar?
Fourth – Decide how you’re going to look for a guitar. Your three choices are usually a dealer, a private party or direct from a luthier. Each option has its good and bad sides. I used to think buying from dealers was crazy, but after working with GSI for so many years I see things differently, even if it’s not always the right answer. So here’s my take on the relative merits of each option:
Private party
Here’s where you’re likely to get the best deal but also face the most risk. A second hand guitar will usually be cheaper than new (unless it’s a fancy vintage something or other or the seller is unreasonable). The downside is that if the guitar has any kind of problem not instantly noticeable, or if you just end up not liking the guitar as much as you thought you would, you basically have no recourse but to turn around and try to sell the guitar yourself.
Direct from a luthier
This is by far the most satisfying experience, but it’s also not without its risks. There’s something really fun about having a guitar made for you. You generally get some say into which kinds of woods are used, and possibly even into the measurements and aesthetics of the instrument (depending on the luthier). It’s also fun to know all about your instrument as it’s being made, being the first owner, and having contact with the person who made it. And because there’s an individual person responsible for making the guitar, they will almost always stand by their work in the case of a problem. The downsides are that you’ll be paying full price for a new guitar (though this may still be less than you pay at a dealer) and that if you simply don’t like the guitar as much as you hoped you would, you’re kind of stuck with it. Most luthiers won’t simply take back a guitar if there’s nothing actually wrong with it.
From a dealer
Buying from a dealer will almost always be more expensive than the previous two options, but there are two very important upsides. The first upside is that you have many guitars to choose from, and you can play them all next to one another and really compare them to one another. This is probably the best way to ensure you wind up with a guitar you love. The other is that a dealer is the only option that is likely to give you any relief if you regret your choice, since many have a trial period of at least a few days and will generally work with you on a trade if it’s a few months before you realize you’ve bought the wrong guitar (for you).
I can’t tell you which is right for you, but hopefully thinking about all of this will help you decide how to go about buying a guitar.
A word about cracks
As I mentioned in Part 2 of this post, wood cracks. I’ve owned very few guitars without at least one crack. I had a Ramirez for a few years with so many huge cracks that I dubbed it “Cracky” and it was a great guitar! Most cracks aren’t structural and don’t really affect a guitar that much. But people don’t like cracks, so guitars with cracks can be a lot cheaper. Personally I always go for the guitar with the (well-repaired) cracks, all other things being equal. As long as you can be pretty sure it’s not structural, don’t let a crack or two (or three) scare you away from buying a guitar you love.
Your friend, The Luthier
And finally I have this to say – make friends with a guitar maker! You’ll learn so much about the instrument you love and you’ll have a valuable resource when it comes time to determine whether a crack is structural or the action on a guitar can be made better. And in the event you damage a guitar yourself it’s good to know the people who can fix them. Also, in my experience, they’re the only other people around who care about guitars as much as we players do!
Kai, thanks for this advice. I’m very happy with my luthier made guitar. The guitar is made in the good old USA. When I was in Spain, I did shop for a guitar in some of the finest shops. I was disappointed in how much the guitars cost relative to what they were. Don’t get me wrong, they were wonderful, but for the price, I expected more. I kinda expect, that if you are not a well-known player and a tourist, they are not going to bring out the “goods” for you. I could be wrong. Yes ,go to Spain, but not necessarily to find the holy grail flamenco guitar that you can afford. I think working with a dealer is a better option. -Miguel
What do you think about the guitars by Velazquez?
If you mean Manuel Velazquez, then I’d say his were some of the truly great guitars of the 20th Century.
Cheers,
Kai
Being brand new to Flamenco; and guitar itself (8 months); what can I expect to pay for a new flamenco guitar? Is the size a concern; I mean, are there sizes made for certain people? So many questions; but until I find the best one for ME, I will learn on my classic nylon. Thanks, Roberto
Hey Roberto – You can pay anywhere from a couple hundred to many many thousands, so it really depends on what feels right to you. If you give me a budget I’ll be happy to give you some ideas. I’d say you can get something pretty good for $400-500, something really pretty amazing for $1500-2000, and then for a handmade guitar you’re looking at around $4,000 and up. As for size, you want to look for a normal, full-size guitar, which means the neck will be at least 650mm long and the nut width will be 48mm or more (though less than 50mm is generally considered crossover, I.e. a guitar that’s trying to feel more like an acoustic than a classical or flamenco).
I wholeheartedly recommend the Yamaha cg171sf/182sf for those looking to get into this genre inexpensively. used, you’re looking at like $250-300 for one in excellent condition, (if that’s your thing) and crucially, the action on these things is nice and low, and can be further lowered easily at home without anything more than a piece of sandpaper. I’ve got mine as low as you’d ever want any flamenco guitar to be with minimal buzzing.
now, it doesn’t sound like a 5k guitar, but no $400 guitar does. it plays every bit as easily as a 5k guitar, though, and that’s what really matters in my opinion if you’re still trying to improve.
I totally agree – can’t be beat at the price, and even if you move up at some point it’s always a great guitar to have around.
I completely agree. They don’t sound that great, but they well made, play beautifully and do have some flamenco character to the sound. Superb for learning on or just having around.
Kai, I am of two minds when it comes to guitars. I love the old ones — I play a very lightweight 1962 Miguel Rodriguez. It is INSANELY GREAT. However, I believe Felipe Conde is making some of the best modern instruments in the world. I sold my Lester Devoe to get a really INCREDIBLE Conde (the Moraito model, number 16). It is the best guitar I have ever played.
More recently, I have ordered a custom guitar from Felipe, which has not yet been delivered, which I think may be the last guitar I ever purchase. I cannot recommend Felipe Conde enough. In my opinion, he creates the best modern flamenco guitars. Period. Joseph
Kai,
I hope all is well. Deciding on a guitar can be overwhelming. Especially, if you live in a country where there are no dealers of flamenco guitars or quality flamenco or classical guitars in general.
What would be your suggestion for a flamenco guitar both Blanca and negra in the under $2500 price range?
I appreciate it in advance.
Cheers,
Hey Ted – As I mention in Part 2 of this article, I love the Camps Primera Blanca, which is about $2000. They also make a Camps Primera Negra. If you have no access to guitar to try I’d say that’s a pretty safe bet on a great guitar.
Cheers,
Kai
Hello,
Seeking value of the two guitars below inherited from the estate of my brother, the first owner of these exceptional instruments. Know price is only what someone will pay, but online searches range from $8,000-10,000 or so. Both in excellent condition with professional repair of small crack on one. Thanks for any info you can supply.
Esteso No. 1, 1967) Conde made/assembled with no signature, but the label clearly states “Viuda de…” meaning it IS no doubt made from parts in the shop and is, therefore, clearly vintage and authentic. Back and sides of Spanish Cypress; the tops made of Spanish Spruce. Label’s formal description: “(V. y Sobrinos De) Domingo Esteso, Constructor of Guitars, Modelo Hecho a Mano, Madrid, made in 1967. (unsigned).” 60 Sobrinos headstock design (I think).
Esteso No. 2, 1964) Signed by the three Conde brothers has the Conde sound that, since the 1970s, most people seek, according to flamenco artist trying the instrument. Back and sides made of Spanish Cypress; top are made of Spanish Spruce. Has 63 Sobrinos media luna headstock (I think). Label information: “V. y Sobrins De Domingo Esteso, Constructor of Guitars.” This guitar made in 1964 was signed by “Conda S. Rano.” Esteso’s business address today: Grayina-,7, Madrid.
Hi Bonnie – As you say, the price is really what you can find someone willing to pay. I have two older Condes (1969 and 1977) and they’re really great guitars. Price can be affected a lot by condition (cracks and finish, etc…) and stuff like the signatures and headstocks. Mine aren’t signed but they’re great guitars so I don’t care. A collector will care more about that stuff, and they’re generally the ones with the money to pay the higher prices. Also, it’s possible that the 1967 one you describe is what’s called a Guitarra de Pozuelo, which were generally unsigned but made in the Conde workshop in Pozuelo de Alarcón. They have the Domingo Esteso headstock rater than the media luna, and many of those are just fantastic guitars, but not as valued by collectors (one of mine is one of those), though plenty of professional players play those.
The higher range of prices is generally gotten by dealers, which means that realistically you may not get very close to the 8k or 10k price if you try to sell them yourself. A dealer will get a higher price but will take a commission of generally about 20%, or they’ll buy it from you for considerably less.
The fact that your brother was the original buyer is super cool. Feel free to email us if you want suggestions for finding someone to help you sell them, if that’s your intention.
Cheers,
Kai